DPR calculations

[illios]

docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuxZlArJH2wxdE55TUlEamxWbF9Wa3otZi10MUM1a2c#gid=1
This is my document that has a DPR calculator. First make a copy of it, then edit. Enter in the relevant fields and turn on the feats, and the dpr will be listed for you at the top. If you guys are too lazy to do this for yourself, you can ask me in this thread here. This is also a place to talk about general optimization and character building.
For level 10 some benchmarks:
AC 24
Monster HP 130,
Monster to Hit 18
Save DC: High 19, Low 13
Monster saves: Good 13, Bad 9

So about <39 DPR is bad, 40-59 is decent, 60-79 is good 80-99 is great, 100-130 is fantastic, and 130+ is awe inspiring.

iglw's inquisitor build already has 131.04 dpr (with a whole slew of circumstantial bonuses) so get cracking.

[kasiil]

Scroll back in the character suggestion sheet a few pages and check my Shadowdancer, though arguably, he's not meant for DPR

[illios]

Its not even close to arguable, your character's DPR is almost unplayable.
DPR without flank or sneak attack (this should never happen btw... ever): 3.94, sneak attacking full attack (no flank): 16.77, Flanking (with sa): 22.06.
This also assumes you have a +2 dex/+2 str item, and a +1 on both your weapons. Don't expect to do damage with this build. The worst part is I don't even know what to do to fix it. Rogues suck. (no really they do...)

[kasiil]

Yeah, though since I played a DPS character (although not an optimal at all one) last year, I figured I go more roleplay-y next yr. Also, i'll probably hope to provide some utility poisons and whatnot at some time, so at least I'll be viable in combat.

[arhino]

This thread makes me sad.

The level of optimization in the club game has been increasing rapidly over the last three years. Believe it or not the fighter/dwarven defender I played in my first year was able to keep up with the party just fine, and he was the very definition of unoptomised. Now a new player is expected to compete with characters capable of dishing out hundreds of damage a round while remaining practically invulnerable to any form of attack.

Combat is only a part of table top roll playing, and in my opinion is the least important part. We suffered from a real disconnect from character development and story telling last year, and i think that the level of min-maxing that this kind of thread supports is at least partly to blame. Obviously I'm as guilty of this as anyone, Red was heavily optimized, but I think the point still stands.

This is not meant to be an attack on anyone, or an attempt to make others play they same way I do, just an observation.

[kasiil]

I agree entirely, however since combat has become an integral part of the campaign (or so it seems, unless something changes for next year), being useless in combat doesn't help your party out and drags the whole team down when you're forced to fight. However, as that is stated, I still plan on using my combat weak character because I like his flavour, utility, and the role playing ideas I have for him, however, it's always nice to know where you stand in terms of damage in case you get into a tough encounter (because they obviously do come up).

Note: I played a 2-weapon fighter all last year (ok he was like 1/3 paladin by the end of it), which is completely sub-optimal and I still dealt enough damage to hang, but I played him cause I liked him, so I can understand where you're coming from.

[iglw]

I didn't mean to! I even used up two feats just to let my character smell fear.

[illios]

It's pretty circumstantial to be fair. Also this is why I'm offering my help. And I don't expect everyone to do this much damage, most of the party should be mediocre damage dealers and give one person the role of being the dude that dishes out the damage. But it's a (imo) fun metric to see. Especially when you accidentally a beast.

Also to use the sheet just copy it into your own google drive. Much easier than sharing it.

[Naelwyn]

Just because my psion could throw literally infinite daggers in a round, doesn't mean I would or should. The actual potential of the character made them completely boring to play.

The more you optimize yourself, the more work a DM has to do in order to be able to run adventures, and the worse the less optimized or new players feel.

The low magic game was very, very educational, and explained fully to me why I was completely unable to write an adventure for the club game last year. It's probably come as close to 'reforming' my play as something ever could.

I strongly encourage thinking about the inverse. If no PC optimizes, then people who can't don't feel bored or left out, the DM doesn't have to optimize, and you'll probably get yourselves outright more stuff to do.

[Applez]

I may very well take multiple skill focuses.

[illios]

I wasn't talking about overall optimization level in my post, more about party roles. If every character is capable of doing tons of damage it's a waste. Overall I do kind of agree with you though jessi, too much and it becomes impossible for the DM to challenge you. BUT if you don't have a certain level of optimization you run the risk of dying too imo. And I don't like dying. Overall I'd like to keep people in the range I called decent to good IF their goal is damage.
Also responding to your character kasiil, I only said his DPR is almost unplayable... he's still super awesome. You have much more utility than even a regular rogue, just don't expect to do much damage (at least from my calculations).

[arhino]

I wasn't planning on jumping in again, but here goes.

I don't think it matters if only one member of the party is capable of these enormous damage totals, the end result is still the same. If regular monsters are being slaughtered so easily, the dm has no choice but to alter the game or it becomes boringly easy.

I'll use myself as an example of overpowered gameplay. If you remember your illuminati mission John, I was able to stunlock every encounter in the mission through the relatively low power level intimidation skill. It got to the point where we started ending combat immediately after I managed to cross the room, simply because there was no longer any chance of defeat.

Eventually dms responded to this through heavy use of undead, constructs, and other fear immune monsters. This solved the issue, but also royally screwed over other players that used similar, but less overpowered abilities, such as sneak attack or mind effecting spells. Red was able to adapt to the change since intimidate was only one of his tricks, but any low opt. Rogues would have become useless.

I think the club game needs to be new-player friendly, and that means that low optimization needs to be the norm. It's not enough to show a new player how to power game, they need to be able to really make their own character, to learn from build mistakes and be able to make stupid choices without becoming unable to contribute.

TLDR. A new player is going to want to take "toughness" when playing a tough character. This should not screw them over.

[Naelwyn]

I find myself agreeing with this sentiment.

[illios]

Toughness is actually really good in pathfinder .
Also I find myself being swayed by your opinions more and more.

Though I still think finding out how much damage you are doing is useful, and a little different from power gaming. If everyone were to have a bit of a gentlemen's agreement that no one person is going to optimize too much, then we need to know what "optimize too much" MEANS. I think a DPR calculator is one means of doing that. I.e. If a player wants to play a fighter that "does a lot of damage" we should all have a pretty clear idea of what "a lot of damage" means. Because lets face it the whole point of not optimizing is so we don't straight outshine people, but that still means they have to pull their weight in a group. People shouldn't go into a game saying "I do a lot of damage" when they only have 30 DPR (at level 10, at level 3 that would be excessive), its just going to suck for that group. Just because I like to calculate DPR doesn't mean I'm about to make a summoner with an 8 armed eldilon that does 200+ DPR.

Also this shouldn't change iglw's character btw. His damage is far too situational to bother trying to tone it down, he just shouldn't burn all this shit at once.

TL;DR a DPR calculator is a tool, and we can use it for good and evil.

[arhino]

I can certainly see the value of this type of tool, so long as, like you say, people don't see it as a challenge to push their dpr higher and higher.

I am also obviously in favour of a general agreement by the club veterans to limit their optimization to manageable levels. The exact nature of that agreement is more difficult to determine however. I don't think making rules like "You may only do x DMV a round" or "your saves may only be x high" is either practical or fun. If we were still playing 3.5 I might suggest something like, if your going to optimize, stick to tier 4 and lower, but I don't have the same familiarity with pathfinder.

Any idea on how to limit power gaming without putting too many restrictions on people?