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Post by Naelwyn on Jun 29, 2011 10:43:17 GMT -5
That seems to be what it says in the book, but I was allowed to trade off my entire attack/defense cap to increase my max toughness when I asked, so I have no idea.
By what I can recall, the following stuff is PL capped and can possibly be traded:
Maximums: Attack Bonus (PL) Max Save DC (10 + PL) Attack Damage (PL) Defense Bonus (10 + PL) Toughness (5 + PL) Saves (5 + PL)
To the best of my knowledge and recollection, For PL 10:
Default Max Stats: STR: 30 DEX: 40 CON: 30 INT: 40 WIS: 40 CHA: 40
Attack: +10 Defense 20 Max Ability Save DC: 20 Max Attack Damage: +10
Toughness +10 Fort +15 Reflex +15 Will +15
Skill Ranks +15
Powers: Ranks in powers that modify stats must obey the above stat limits, but otherwise are limited only by the number of power points you have.
Houserules:
The Regeneration power is capped at 20 ranks maximum
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jun 29, 2011 14:38:40 GMT -5
Turns out I was doing a number of things wrong on my end last time. Nothing to major, but I have a much better grasp of it now.
first off is the way damage works, I had it close but not spot on. I know now, and shall track your damage myself from now on.
I shall also likely try to bring a grid and or minis I need to carry them for the 45 min walk there, and then back home.... need to think of something to fix that... maybe leave the grid in Alex's care?
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Post by Naelwyn on Jun 29, 2011 15:48:37 GMT -5
After reading up on the PL stuff and the toughness save I understand that my character is literally completely uninjurable by anything below PL 15 that hasn't sacrificed hit chance. (Addendum: Since I have no defense either, an enemy that has traded in the entirety of to-hit for damage has a 50% chance of hitting me (Base10AC) for +20 damage, which I have a 75% chance to resist entirely.)[This comes at a cost to the character of being unable to hit a normal enemy without a natural 20, and the fact that the character is automatically hit by a normal attack.]
Do you want me to scale that back a bit? Maybe pull some points from the toughness cap and put them into attack bonus cap? Since even though it was allowed, the rules don't actually say that can be done?
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jun 29, 2011 17:12:17 GMT -5
Looked it up and....
"You can only increase Toughness saving throw bonus above your base Constitution bonus with feats and powers. Your maximum Toughness bonus is equal to the campaign’s power level. (See Power Level, page 24.)"
So, your max toughness due to con is +0. This is a problem, clearly.
However, the power Protection costs one per rank, +1 point for Innate (means it is not a power but who you are) and the flaw Permanent (can not turn it off for -1 balancing innate). The power reads as such...
"You’re particularly resistant to harm. You gain a bonus on your Toughness saving throws equal to your Protection rank."
So you could stop messing with the max points in saves, defence and attack... and instead shift your points for toughness, to Innate permanent Protection of the same amount.
Also be aware that while you are PL 10, not everything you face is.
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Post by Naelwyn on Jun 29, 2011 17:19:13 GMT -5
So essentially:
1) There's no issue with having a high toughness modifier?
2) I could've just bought a single power and been done with it? Ergo, I can still have the same toughness modifier?
3) Isn't Innate a Power Feat that costs 1 PP per power?
4) The messing with max ranks stuff comes from this:
Defense & Toughness: You can trade-off defense bonus for Toughness saving throw bonus on a one-to-one basis. So a PL 10 hero with a +7 defense bonus could have a +13 Toughness save bonus. Conversely a hero in the same campaign who has a +15 defense bonus is limited to a +5 Toughness save bonus. No limit can be reduced to less than 0 in this way and the GM must approve all such trade-offs. Attack/defense trade-offs allow for some variety in combat-related bonuses while maintaining power level balance among the heroes overall. (Which prompted me to ask: "If I could dump my max attack and defense bonus to zero, could I make my toughness cap 30?")
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jun 29, 2011 20:08:58 GMT -5
4) In addition you are ALSO limited by con mod, we missed that the first time. hence it not working.
3) not for this.
2) yaaaaaa
1) nope, wolverine can't die easy either.
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Post by Naelwyn on Jun 29, 2011 20:33:49 GMT -5
Ah. I found the relevant sections.
Toughness just simply isn't the same as the other saves.
The only way to affect Toughness is CON or powers. Yep.
-------------------------- Current Character Adjustments Requiring Approval:
Remove 10 Points from Regeneration - Recovery Bonus Reallocate 28 Misallocated Points in Toughness Save. --- 38 Points
Allocate 20 Points to Constitution, bringing Mod to +10. Allocate 18 Points to Protection
Net Effects on Character: No Changes to any rolls. Constitution is Higher. Huh. There is probably a way to make this even more efficient somehow, I expect, but I'll continue to stick to simple things until I can nail the mechanics. (Possibly stick some kind of alternate power on that protection power at some point.)
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Post by kyzo on Jun 30, 2011 7:48:14 GMT -5
Ok, so by default M&M 2e rules, the maximum toughness a character can have would be 20, assuming the character trade-offs all his defense. As the PL limits seem to include bonuses from powers. Thats how I understood it anyway. (see pg.24)
edit: I don't think permanent flaw applies to protection, as it is already permanent, Unless you take force field (+0) extra.
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jun 30, 2011 21:51:34 GMT -5
You are right about the second part. But the limit is set for your base and bonus... they are not the same. I am pretty sure powers can boost it up and over... though I maybe wrong. Hmmm
Though in the end, what matters is I, the dm, am ok with his PC.
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Post by Apples on Jul 1, 2011 0:05:50 GMT -5
My interpretation of what I read on caps was: Trait - Cap Attack - PL Defence - (10)+PL Toughness Save- PL Damage DC - (15)+PL Fort/Will/Reflex Saves - PL+5 Ability Scores - Book says 2*PL+10 for strength/Con, PL*2+20 for the rest, I say make them as high as you want but higher than this won't benefit you other than in skills because you still can't exceed the other caps, but I don't get to decide this. Skills - PL+5 Non-Damage Save DC (10)+PL
Numbers in brackets are automatically added, to the value by how the game works, numbers not in brackets mean that the cap is that much higher than the PL.
Power Ranks are either capped at PL, PL+5 or uncapped, I couldn't find anything that specified this, but they obviously cannot cause anything to exceed the above caps.
Pretty sure the only ways to go over PL are through aid and some application of hero points.
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jul 1, 2011 0:36:22 GMT -5
You are right, though you can have a toughness of PL, but then have ranks in protection and have an 'effective' toughness of over PL?
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Post by Naelwyn on Jul 1, 2011 0:59:47 GMT -5
DM's Perogative.
By the code, The max toughness is = PL without tradeoffs. This toughness can be gained only via CON or Feat or Power, and Cannot exceed PL + Tradeoff.
If, however, you wish to allow the protection power to go beyond this default cap, it is fully within your powers to alter the rules however you like.
I am fully willing to adjust the character in whatever way is necessay pending a decision.
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Post by kyzo on Jul 1, 2011 7:18:36 GMT -5
Here is the official FAQ grfiles.game-host.org/2e_files/MM2eFAQ.pdf , on page 3 it states that "What’s the limit on maximum ranks you can have in a power? There is no upper limit to power rank, except those limits specifically spelled out on page 24 of Mutants & Masterminds. In particular, saving throw Difficulty Class and any effect on saving throw bonuses and ability scores are the primary limiters for powers. Powers with none of these effects are limited solely by how many points the character has to spend, and any series-specific limitations imposed by the Gamemaster."
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Post by Naelwyn on Jul 5, 2011 23:51:04 GMT -5
Charles Atlas (Charles Atlas) PL 10, 155pts
(12) Feats: Melee Focus 10, Improved Grab, Improved Grapple
(160) Powers: (77) Construct Traits: Immunity Suite, Innate [If there is a way to mitigate this one somehow, It'd be fantastic in terms of points saved.] (22) Density 10, Permanent, Subtle, Innate (1) Protection 3, Impervious 3, Innate (1) Immovability 3, Innate (7) Superstrength 3, Selective, Groundstrike, Shockwave, Thunderclap, Innate (33) Regeneration 30, Persistent, Regrowth, Innate (17) Leaping 16, Innate (2) Space Travel, Innate
(0) Skills:
(+18) Stats: Str 30 (+10), Dex 10 (+0), Con - (-), Int 10 (+0), Wis 6 (-2), Cha 6 (-2)
(0) Combat: Attack 0 (10 with powers, 10 for melee, 0 for ranged) Defense Bonus 0 Actual Defense of 10
(17) Saves: (17) Toughness +20 Fortitude - Reflex 0 (+0) Willpower -
(+16) Disadvantages/Weaknesses/Stat Adjustments -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ended up miscounting when reworking the character post-session. Requires 16 points worth of stuff either removed or counterbalanced.
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Post by Nygil, Nickolie on Jul 6, 2011 0:11:13 GMT -5
Guns for Q
Device 2 (costing 8pp) Blast 10 (Type: Bullet) Feats: (Improved Range 2, Accurate, Indirect 2) Flaws: (Action, Distracting)
This gun takes a full round action to shoot, and you are flat footed when using it. Though it shoots with a 500ft range increment (max 5,000ft), it does +10 damage. It can shoot through any wall within 500ft of the shooter, and grants a +2 to hit (max +10)
OR
Device 5 (costing 20pp) Blast 10 (Type: Bullet) Feats: (Improved Range 2, Accurate, Indirect 2)
This weapon is a standard action to fire, it shoots with a 500ft range increment (max 5,000ft). It does +10 damage. It can shoot through any wall within 500ft of the shooter, and grants a +2 to hit (max +10)
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